Thank you for this. There is more creative thinking here - creative and conceivably workable - than in all of the mainstream press harping on the need to blindly repeat attempted solutions that have failed miserably in the past, and have led to the apocalyptic present. I hope these ideas find effective political support and sponsorship not only in Israel but on the part of all national stakeholders, surrounding states, the US, etc. that truly want a workable solution. It seems to me that a new government in Israel will be a prerequisite, but you may disagree.
We need a change of government in any event. I think that the Israeli government has to push for something like this but it will never get off the ground without US support. The US and the entire international community have to realize that the current PA leadership is harmful to peace. I think the Abraham Accord Arab signatories already realize this.
As far as I can tell Palestine serves to keep the restive Muslim underclasses focused on the Jews lest they turn on their own malign elites. Would those elites want any solution at all?
The solution depends on different elites. The local leadership has been replaced by the terrorists that Arafat brought in after Oslo. They have just brought misery. We need to re-establish the local leadership.
Very logical and intelligent but, like all Western proposals, it completely ignores the question of Islam. That true believers should associate on a basis of equality with Jews, and accept the loss of their territory and the legitimacy of the state of Israel is out of the question. True believers would rather have war and misery than peace and prosperity on such terms. Ordinary Palestinians who might be willing to accept it will keep silent or be murdered as traitors and spies.
"Freedom of religion"? Contrary to Islam. Christianity and Judaism can at best be tolerated in a subordinate position.
"Well, the time has come to start making demands and forcing some hard truths on the Palestinian side, too." That would require some principle and strength of character on the part of Western governments, qualities which are nowhere in evidence (Geert Wilders possibly excepted) - not to mention the Iranians, who will use all of their considerable influence to wreck it because it is good for Israel.
I understand your concern. But not all Palestinians are fanatical “true believers”. And not all Arabs are either. We live with over 1 million Arabs in Israel. There are many Moslems who want an opportunity to live an Islamic life not under the knee of the true believers. This gives the Palestinians that opportunity. They may not take it- in which case they will live under the rule of the Israeli military.
I agree, not all Palestinians and Muslims are true believers. If Hamas is truly crushed that might provide an opportunity for the people of Gaza. It may be that life under the rule of the Israeli military is the only option.
I agree that my not mentioning Islam is a fault in my argument - so let me explain. These extended families, the hamula leaders are religious in their own right. They follow their religious leaders because they appoint and support them. They control them. Well... they are them.
In his book PALESTINE BETRAYED, Ephraim Karsh mentions Palestinians who would have been willing to live with Israel - they were murdered, along with even merely political rivals of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini. In chapter 4, "The Road to Partition," Karsh says that the Husseinis (as a clan) "launched a campaign of terror, intimidation and assassinations against political opponents and alleged 'collaborators'."
Later in the same chapter he writes that the Mufti "worked assiduously to consolidate his control over the Palestinian Arabs, setting up national committees . . . distributing substantial quantities of weapons . . . and eliminating the remaining vestiges of opposition. The assassination of the prominent Haifa moderate Sami Taha on September 12 [1947] threw the anti-Husseini camp into disarray."
King Abdullah of Jordan was probably assassinated for the crime of accepting Israel, along with Sadat, as you know. There are more moderate Muslims who would be willing to live with Israel but the radicals and fundamentalists are a lot more violent and a lot more aggressive.
It very well may be - who knows? - that in the not too distant future the Europeans and the Americans will be so deeply embroiled with Hamas like groups in their own countries that there will be another Arab-Israeli conflict in which the Palestinians will get zero international support and then events will take place such as have taken place in countless other countries over 5,000 years of recorded human history. That is, one side or the other will be decisively defeated, and the survivors of the losing side will either go elsewhere or remain in complete subordination.
In the mean time, secular Israelis will have to give up their dream of being just like Holland or Belgium.
Before Oslo, there were talks with local Palestinian leaders about autonomy. Once Arafat was allowed to come in and brought his thugs that ended. Arafat was the updated version of the Mufti. He understood that aligning with the global left made him more popular than aligning with the Nazis. Interestingly, his ideology and the Mufti's are the same.
In the mean time, secular Israelis will have to give up their dream of being just like Holland or Belgium.
Thank you for this. There is more creative thinking here - creative and conceivably workable - than in all of the mainstream press harping on the need to blindly repeat attempted solutions that have failed miserably in the past, and have led to the apocalyptic present. I hope these ideas find effective political support and sponsorship not only in Israel but on the part of all national stakeholders, surrounding states, the US, etc. that truly want a workable solution. It seems to me that a new government in Israel will be a prerequisite, but you may disagree.
We need a change of government in any event. I think that the Israeli government has to push for something like this but it will never get off the ground without US support. The US and the entire international community have to realize that the current PA leadership is harmful to peace. I think the Abraham Accord Arab signatories already realize this.
I agree.
Fantastic piece of analysis . This seems pragmatic and practical
As far as I can tell Palestine serves to keep the restive Muslim underclasses focused on the Jews lest they turn on their own malign elites. Would those elites want any solution at all?
The solution depends on different elites. The local leadership has been replaced by the terrorists that Arafat brought in after Oslo. They have just brought misery. We need to re-establish the local leadership.
Very logical and intelligent but, like all Western proposals, it completely ignores the question of Islam. That true believers should associate on a basis of equality with Jews, and accept the loss of their territory and the legitimacy of the state of Israel is out of the question. True believers would rather have war and misery than peace and prosperity on such terms. Ordinary Palestinians who might be willing to accept it will keep silent or be murdered as traitors and spies.
"Freedom of religion"? Contrary to Islam. Christianity and Judaism can at best be tolerated in a subordinate position.
"Well, the time has come to start making demands and forcing some hard truths on the Palestinian side, too." That would require some principle and strength of character on the part of Western governments, qualities which are nowhere in evidence (Geert Wilders possibly excepted) - not to mention the Iranians, who will use all of their considerable influence to wreck it because it is good for Israel.
I understand your concern. But not all Palestinians are fanatical “true believers”. And not all Arabs are either. We live with over 1 million Arabs in Israel. There are many Moslems who want an opportunity to live an Islamic life not under the knee of the true believers. This gives the Palestinians that opportunity. They may not take it- in which case they will live under the rule of the Israeli military.
I agree, not all Palestinians and Muslims are true believers. If Hamas is truly crushed that might provide an opportunity for the people of Gaza. It may be that life under the rule of the Israeli military is the only option.
I agree that my not mentioning Islam is a fault in my argument - so let me explain. These extended families, the hamula leaders are religious in their own right. They follow their religious leaders because they appoint and support them. They control them. Well... they are them.
In his book PALESTINE BETRAYED, Ephraim Karsh mentions Palestinians who would have been willing to live with Israel - they were murdered, along with even merely political rivals of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini. In chapter 4, "The Road to Partition," Karsh says that the Husseinis (as a clan) "launched a campaign of terror, intimidation and assassinations against political opponents and alleged 'collaborators'."
Later in the same chapter he writes that the Mufti "worked assiduously to consolidate his control over the Palestinian Arabs, setting up national committees . . . distributing substantial quantities of weapons . . . and eliminating the remaining vestiges of opposition. The assassination of the prominent Haifa moderate Sami Taha on September 12 [1947] threw the anti-Husseini camp into disarray."
King Abdullah of Jordan was probably assassinated for the crime of accepting Israel, along with Sadat, as you know. There are more moderate Muslims who would be willing to live with Israel but the radicals and fundamentalists are a lot more violent and a lot more aggressive.
It very well may be - who knows? - that in the not too distant future the Europeans and the Americans will be so deeply embroiled with Hamas like groups in their own countries that there will be another Arab-Israeli conflict in which the Palestinians will get zero international support and then events will take place such as have taken place in countless other countries over 5,000 years of recorded human history. That is, one side or the other will be decisively defeated, and the survivors of the losing side will either go elsewhere or remain in complete subordination.
In the mean time, secular Israelis will have to give up their dream of being just like Holland or Belgium.
Karsh is excellent.
Before Oslo, there were talks with local Palestinian leaders about autonomy. Once Arafat was allowed to come in and brought his thugs that ended. Arafat was the updated version of the Mufti. He understood that aligning with the global left made him more popular than aligning with the Nazis. Interestingly, his ideology and the Mufti's are the same.
In the mean time, secular Israelis will have to give up their dream of being just like Holland or Belgium.
Absolutely!!!